Culture of Access event - Dec. 3, 2021 Paul Menton Centre, Carleton University TRANSCRIPT: Panel Discussion [Instrumental music] [Bruce] I've seen that video now uh, a number of times and uh, I have to admit that even, even now uh while watching it in its entirety like that I'm just blown away by how inspiring these people are. If we do indeed have a culture of accessibility at Carleton it's because of people like Angel, Darryl, Amanda, Sam, Jenna, and Phenyo who have paved the way, and continue to pave the way for it. From the bottom of our hearts, thank you all for sharing your stories with us, and being for the inspiration for Love Made Visible. I'd also like to take a moment to thank the production team who made this possible Larry, Michael, and Jocelyn from the PMC and Hasi, Greg, Kya, Lisa, Marissa, and Tai, from Teaching and Learning Services, Media Production Centre. Thank you all very much. I'm now going to turn over the proceedings to my colleague, Amanda Blais who is the Senior Disability Learning Support Coordinator in the PMC, and also one of my favourite Toronto Maple Leafs fans. And I never actually thought I would string all those words together in one sentence but Amanda, for you I did. A Carleton University alumna, Amanda has worked at the Paul Menton Centre for Students with Disabilities for 10 years as a Disabilities Coordinator and Learning Strategist. In 2018-2019, Amanda led a team in creating and implementing the Carleton University access- accessible experiential learning project, now Act to Employ, providing subsidized employment opportunities for students with disabilities and I have to say-um, Act to Employ is one of my favourite programs here at Carleton. I always get a bit of a kick because when I'm talking to colleagues at other institutions, I, uh, I talk about Act to Employ and it usually just blows their minds. Um it is what I like to refer to as an absolute rock star program, run by some very, very special rock star people including our own Jenna Lambert, from the uh from the video. And Amanda, you were there at the very start of it. [Amanda] I can say I was there at the beginning. Thank you so much, Bruce for that introduction. Um I too never thought that you would call me your favourite Leafs fan. Uh i didn't know you had one [Bruce] I said one of - [Amanda] but I’m happy with - [Bruce] - one of my favorites - one of [Amanda] [laughs] right, right... I have the honor and privilege today of hosting the phenomenal panel uh who will be speaking to us about accessibility um and how it's been represented at Carleton, what we foresee will happen in the future, and I'm just really excited to jump into our, our panelists because although the video did an amazing job of highlighting a lot of lived experience for students who have gone through PMC, uh it's great to, as the students in the video mentioned, hear from other folks in the community, uh persons in places of power, who uh represent the disability community, um as well as we have uh former graduates as well. So, I am going to introduce our panelists and I'm going to start with Dr. Tammi Ricci. Dr. Ricci, earned her PhD in clinical psychology from York University in Toronto, her Master's from Carleton University, and an Honours BA from Nipissing University. She is trained in a variety of clinical settings including CAMH, formerly known as the Clark Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto, the Chiropractic College in Toronto, the Counseling and Development Center at York University in Toronto, and the Downsview Rehabilitation Center in Toronto. So, Tammi's doing a lot over there in Toronto [laughs]. In the past, Dr. Ricci has worked at Paul Menton Centre at Carleton University and at the Rehabilitation Centre in Ottawa. She has been in private practice for the last 22 years, I never would have guessed that just talking to Tammi [laughs] and is a registered member of the College of Psychologists of Ontario as well as a member of the American Psychological Association the Canadian Psychological Association, the Ontario Psychological Association, the Canadian Academy of Psychologists and Disability Awareness, the Canadian Society of Medical Evaluators, the Ottawa Academy of Psychology, and the Canadian Registry of Healthcare Providers. Currently, Dr. Ricci lives in Ottawa with her husband and two teenage sons. So, thank you Tammi for being here. I'd also like to introduce Dr. Paul Peters. Dr. Peters is a PhD- has a PhD in sociology, from the University of Texas at Austin, is an associate professor in the department of health sciences at Carleton University and leads the spatial determinants of health labs. Dr. Peters was late diagnosed with ADHD and has a proudly neuro-diverse family probably diverse as well [chuckles]. Since his diagnosis, Dr. Peters has worked to promote accessibility by sharing his experience and amplifying those of others. He is active on ADHD Twitter as @unitepangaea. Dr. Peter's academic research aligns with the values of accessibility via the study of small spaces and small - small places and small spaces, sorry my tongue is being twisted around in a context of enduring social inequities. These health inequities manifest between social groups across a range of factors such as income, education, or ethnicity. At the same time health inequities are spatially evident with differences between provinces, regions, communities, and neighborhoods. His lab has received funding from the SSHRC, the CIHR, to study rural health, small area rate variation, and hospital use, and the environmental factors association with autism, ADHD, and OCD. Thank you, Paul, for being here as well. And I'd also like to introduce Rebecca Andre. Rebecca is a recent graduate from the applied linguistics and discord studies BA Honours program at Carleton University with a minor in disability studies. Rebecca is a passionate disability rights advocate with a firm belief in the power of language and its ability to give dignity back to those who have had it stripped away. Rebecca believes that creating spaces at the table for voices of those with lived and living experience is a vital step towards cultivating change and building a society we can be proud of. Andre has worked with Carleton's READ Initiative on critically important projects that help move our community towards creating more inclusive spaces for persons with disabilities, and is excited to be able to continue this work. Rebecca identifies as a disabled woman living with both visible and invisible disabilities and continues to make the commitment to learn, to educate and consistently push towards a more inclusive community for everyone. And to round out our panel we have Larry McCloskey, who needs no introduction because Bruce already gave it to us earlier so [laughs] but just as a reminder, Larry has been around since the ice melted I think is the end of the bio for Larry here. So, I'd like to get us kicked off and again thank you to all of our panelists for joining us today. Before we begin please be sure to use the comments to also include your questions as we go along, as we will be allowing a question and answer period at the end. Anything that is not addressed we will also have answers for and publish after the event as well. So, let's get going, so - Tammi, in your experience what has set Carleton apart in the area of accessibility in the past 30 years? [Tammi] The big question, and I just wanted to quick comment - I did work at the Paul Menton Centre very briefly as a receptionist and I really sucked at it. So sorry if anybody was there at the time, messages may have gotten lost. Um yeah so, I think for me it's not one thing that sets Carleton apart but rather an attitude, a commitment to, to improve the lives of people with disabilities. Um so, when a need is brought forth you know I've gone to other universities it's we'll think about it, I don't know, it's too hard, but Carleton it's like okay let's figure out how we can do this. Um and I think that that you know um embodies what they've done over the last 30 years. Um so they create possibilities uh with a focus on ability rather than disability and really removal of barriers, right? And for me, my time at Carleton a while back um it was about - you know I felt like I was a person and I forgot at times that I was disabled because those barriers were removed, because I could be a person living in residence, and hanging out, and getting drunk, and even having a hangover [laughs] and all the supports that were there um allowed me to be you know the person that I really was rather than the disability. Um and it was life-altering actually for me I mean - I met my husband there um I understood that there were all kinds of things that were possible for me. Including a PhD program, including children all kinds of things so um I think you know going back I think it’s attitude and commitment for me, yeah. [Amanda] Thank you so much, Dr. Ricci. Attitude and commitment is extremely important and I and I feel like Larry's gonna have some more to highlight there in terms of what's happened over the past 30 years as I think you've been here the entire time, eh Larry? So, I'll turn it over to you. [Larry] Thanks Amanda. Um and uh by the way, Tammi is a real superstar in life and certainly was at Carleton and as associated with PMC uh when you just reading her credentials and her associations was uh quite amazing it makes me almost wish I'd finished grade 12 actually, I'm kind of embarrassed but um... So yes, things go back a long way and things have really changed and what we did well I think started with having values and doing what we said we were going to do. Developing good practices which resulted in good outcomes so you know the cornerstone here though are the values and uh following through and then also the, the - our regard for the student as the as a complete person, I think was really, really pivotal. So, emphasis on relationships is what I'm always going to come back to that that also spills over into PMC in terms of staffing so, I think that people had a very good uh working relationship and that of course is still true which translates though into what is given out and uh shared with students. So, um, one really important difference I think in terms of other places was - we were confronted with really intractable, seemingly intractable, problems around accessibility and, and um uh all kinds of things. So, what we didn't do was avoid. We would - we embraced the big problems even though it was difficult and there was always fear of human rights and we were less concerned about human rights cases than just sort of not following through properly for students and - but we embraced those things and, and really we didn't anticipate this but over time that uh started to garnish us a reputation that we were actually surprised when we got the feedback about that and just sort of uh one example was around learning disabilities. Uh I was involved in the learning opportunities task force for learning disabilities and Betty Stevenson the former cabinet ministry of many portfolios called and said she's getting all this sort of good - all these students saying good things about Carleton and so she wanted me involved on the basis of those students who were such amazing uh ambassadors. So, uh, as well not -we didn't capitulate to the tyranny of low expectations, we knew our students could do what any other student could do and - and they followed through and under difficult circumstances I might add. Um so um one thing too that we did is we met faculty, I think to some extent, on their own terms back in you know, I remember in the 90s there was a lot of friction between our office and faculty and often people in our positions would use the Human Rights Code and as sometimes a bit of a weapon and it's what we rather did rather was to try to engage, and to take into consideration their part of the equation and to deal with um - resistance in a way that could often in an empirical way. Just to give you an example I remember the dean of engineering and many engineers had a meeting and I had to come all by my lonesome and so I had redacted a Psycho-Ed assessment to show that it was done with empirical testing done by a peer PhD clinical psychologist and that won them over because of the empirical side of things and they could they could see it, but as well we made some adjustments based on what their input was. So um that was the type of thing too, we didn't see relationships just as with students, they the most important, not just with staff, next important, but also with faculty, very, very important. And that - to get that trust over the years I think was really, really important so that continues. Thanks. [Amanda] I can certainly agree that having um, you know the whole, as Jenna said in the video, the whole village around to support and ensure that students needs are being considered before they're needed is - is always a good place to start. Um and I would like to kind of go off that a little bit because again um, I know that as much work has been done in the past 30 years there's - there's always - there's always room for change and there's always room for growth. So, Paul, in your opinion, um what does Carleton need to do in order to remain a leader in accessibility? [Paul] Thanks. Um I think Carleton is a leader in accessibility, I think that's one of the - it's - you know obviously we know this, I think the overall understanding of disabilities changing in, in uh sort of broader society and I think that's good because I think a lot of that needs to do - and I think Carleton proclaiming itself as a leader and challenging others to step up as well is a big step, um and getting this to become you know across the country and across academia because ableism and academics is - is alive and well um and dealing with this you know requires it at all levels. One of the - the things is sort of, my bio I'm late diagnosed ADHD and one of the reasons why I've, I've become uh out vocal about sort of the difficulties that I've struggled with anxiety, depression, uh improper coping mechanisms and things like that is so that people can see people throughout the community um and have that promoted um. So that we see that there are people at all levels and everywhere within academia um, uh, with disabilities um at various degrees, um various types, um and so I - I see that um as one of that. Uh, also I think that, that um uh you know that Carleton could you know, increase the normality of accessibility and that people talk about accessibility or advocacy exhaustion, becoming exhausted with advocating for oneself not just every term, not just but also in every course, but also in every assignment and then along with that disclosing and barriers of disclosing and, and diagnoses um and, and these, these all become barriers and issues and I think that increasing the normality of it - and Carleton's gone a long way - but I think it does need to move beyond just um where it is right now sort of throughout teaching, learning um and also beyond that to seeing the whole person within academics but then within their whole environment and knowing that um, uh people's disabilities and, and challenges don't stop at the university gates right? They're at home, uh they're elsewhere, they're in the community, they're in society, and seeing people throughout that and then throughout their journey, that those are faced elsewhere, and those can impact their ability to succeed in academics, their ability to thrive. [Amanda] Thank you Paul. Again, another insightful into look into again not just not just students but also faculty and staff and um everyone that is connected in the community and really trying to to foster that awareness and um and growth. Now I'll turn it over to Rebecca to see if she's got any insights into um, you know how can we remain leaders of accessibility? [Rebecca] Yeah thanks, I just want to sort of rip off of something Paul just said towards the end - it's like that accessibility or support stuff, it doesn't just stop at academics, it doesn't stop in uh within university. I think that's something that Carleton does really well with the Act to Employ program, or when it started with CUAEL, it's like - but there's still so many people with disabilities that are underemployed. We're over educated and underemployed and so you know it's we're working through these programs like Act to Employ, we're working through there to like sort of bridge that gap and give us the experience and giving us the experience not only to get experience for our resume but also learning how to advocate for ourselves, learning how to have those hard conversations with employers, learning how to manipulate the environment, learning how to ask for accommodations and knowing that someone has your back no matter how difficult that conversation is - that's actually really important and I think that's one of the most beneficial things that I got through both the CUAEL program because I was there at the beginning too, and the Act to Employ program. Those were really important things for me to have even as a mature student so that was great but also, one of the things that I wanted to put on the table is that - we're at this pivotal point now where everyone is starting to question and it's a really important point in our like tipping point our ladders, that everyone has been talking about accessibility now the government's been talking about accessibility but now people are starting to question okay but what is accessibility? What are accommodations? And I think we need to create more spaces to have those conversations and that's how we can continue to put this forward and create an even more inclusive environment. Thanks. [Amanda] Forever the Rockstar, yes, we do need to work towards defining what accessibility and inclusion looks like as it's been probably defined by other people as it tends to have happened so um, and it can mean different things to different people but as a university what is it what does it mean to us and how can we move it forward? Um Larry, do you have any final thoughts regarding this question in terms of how do we continue to remain leaders in accessibility? [Larry] Well um, a really um prevailing but kind of simple sounding mantra for the past which applies to the future has always been for us - uh keeping it real towards getting it done. So I think that universities do have a slight tendency sometimes to be a lit a little more aspirational than practical. So I think being mindful of that because this is a, an area where we really need to do what we what - there's practical things that need to be go alongside uh the more theoretical approach which universities are renowned. So both are good, we have to do both. Uh interesting though the - on the question of uh defining accessibility uh um and uh disability services and so on - here's an important point that I really wanted to make for this question. One thing we learned, and FITA actually was informed by what we learned on learning disabilities at PMC then FITA, then it's come back to, to uh PMC because PMC does a lot more than accommodation, a lot of its student development, learning skills and we know that that's really important. It's not all about accommodation. Now the interesting thing about FITA is these are students with poor mental health without diagnoses and most of whom do not get accommodations but they get all kinds of other services. So, one of the things that I think is important moving forward is, and sort of building on what the two previous people have said is, that I think we need the mandate where we have definition and documentation but for this emerging population of poor mental health we don't necessarily need to have them qualify by a PMC definition but we have to serve their needs. We can do that and we don't get caught up and we don't limit we can because this, this percentage of students with poor mental health is going to get bigger and bigger and so, I think that we if we can do away with some of the bureaucracy and qualifications up front, we can serve students better on the other end of things. The interesting point of maturation for me uh, from the past to the future and moving forward is - there are things we have learned at, not just PMC but Make the Cut, FITA, and the Attendant Services Program, and all kinds of things, and READ, we are now learning things to, to include persons with disabilities but many of the things apply to all students, to the general population. What we learned on the student development side is that this is what students need. We happen to have applied it to students with disabilities and to students with poor mental health that piece has not gotten on to the extent possible and to me that's the most gratifying thing apart from working with people like you Amanda and students, but in terms of what we accomplished, the most important thing was this piece of not only getting to a point where we had a better idea and better practices with better outcomes but now we can apply these to the, the general population if they're interested. That to me is where you go from this sort of outlier service to something that is fully integrated into the entire university. [Amanda] Thank you Larry, and I have to agree. I do feel like the more that um - and again it was said over and over again in the video um - the more that students uh, and, and really anybody in the community uh, can, can raise their voices and be included without having to um, necessarily have the documentation there um, can really help to further things along and make it a more inclusive environment. Rebecca, you'll have to define what inclusive means [laughs] for everyone um, now I'm mindful Tammi, that you have to be going soon so I'm going to target this one to you first um, and today being the International Day for Persons with Disabilities, I wonder how many of you - those watching caught on to why we were hosting this today um, What does the International Day for Persons with Disabilities mean to you Tammi? [Tammi] Yeah, I think it's a time um, to reflect right? A time to reflect on the past, what's been done um, mistakes made the good, the bad you know um, and also look you know across cultures, across countries right? And learn from each other you know I - I think that we can kind of you know, Carleton as an example I mean really Carleton has been at the forefront even, even in terms of their Attendant Services Program um, it's you know world-renowned right? And, and I think learning um, from things that have already been conducted right um, rather than reinvent the wheel. But also, kind of taking a look ahead, what needs to be done, where do we need to grow, what do we need to do? And part of that is looking at how do we eliminate or reduce barriers and really focus on ability and I like what Larry was saying about um you know it's not necessarily having a diagnosis or a label put on someone. But, it's really working on what are the issues for that person? What are some of the barriers? And how can we assist them to overcome those barriers? Maybe not eliminate but overcome. [Amanda] I love that so - so looking at like you're saying the, the abilities of people and, and um, you know making sure that those barriers aren't existing. Thank you so much Tammi, for joining us today in case you don't get a chance to say that. I know you have to jump off um, as you have wonderful clients that are awaiting your support uh, so thanks again for, for being here in case we don't get to come back to you. [Tammi] Thank you for having me. [Amanda] I’m going to turn this question over to Paul. So, Paul what does the International Day for Persons with Disabilities mean to you? [Paul] Sort of building on building on - on what I, what I was talking about before is you know, what, what disabilities look like. Um uh you know as being late diagnosed ADHD um, and someone who has at that point had a PhD, three kids, had been a research chair, you know how would this have applied to me? You know, I didn't know - these were all unknown. Would those of benefited me as a student in the general undiagnosed population? Yeah. Could they have helped me understand that better earlier? Probably. Um, but I think also it gives us a chance to sort of reflect on you know what does disability mean? And in, in this term sort of moving beyond I think one, one thing that it can help is, is highlighting the need to move beyond just talking about accessibility and access. And then asking questions sort of like well what about thriving right? Let's help people thrive. What about flourishing? Right, these are what we need to work towards we're not - our bar isn't accessibility right, our bar is flourishing and thriving and I think - that's where, I think we need to set our bar at so... Um, beyond that so um, and part of that is with International Day for Disabilities I think is what they highlight is that, it’s not the lack of adaptation that's the root of the barriers, right so it's not that we don't have this accommodation that's the barrier, it's so - it’s not sorry - it is the lack of accommodation that's the barrier right? The lack of adaptation of the system. It's not the individual with those barriers um, uh, that we need to focus on. So, it's moving beyond that. I think the International Day for Disabilities helps us do that, that, that we see that it's, it's the lack of adaptation in the system and the pandemic has really helped illustrate a lot of those things. You know, I knew of instances before the pandemic where people couldn't finish their degrees because there was a requirement for being in-person classes for certain college, colleges, um for certifications um, so they actually had to be in-person so for those with disabilities, if they couldn't make it to classes then they wouldn't be able to get their degree because they couldn't get credit for it. Well, the pandemic turns all this on its head completely and we realize just how nonsensical that is. And there's lots of these things that um, are in a way nonsensical that we just haven't seen yet and so um, you know in the one hand you know, things may become more invisible with the pandemic, things can hide but, in a way, it’s also shown us a lot of things that, that you know are there to address and are there to help. [Amanda] I love that - it’s not the - accessibility isn't the bar it's, it's you know, how do we allow people to thrive right and I love that, that visual, everything that happened there. Um, and also probably uh, to your point with regards to online learning it probably explains potentially why we had more graduates this year than any year previous to Carleton right? Um, there was a lot of people who were able to come back and, and take courses, I mean speculation on my part but uh, I'd be willing to guess Paul, that might be maybe what it's related to as well is access. Um, Rebecca, do you have any final thoughts for us on what the uh, Day for International Persons with Disabilities means to you? [Rebecca] Yeah, I do um, so I'm just gonna toss out um, something that I pulled from actually Sam in- in the video- that progress is slow but it's also constant and that just sort of hit me like this is just sort of what we're doing, we're just progressing slowly. Um, but at least we're progressing um, but what the International Day of Persons with Disabilities what it means to me is it's the day that we were acknowledged that we were people. And if we can reflect on that and think that this day was acknowledged in 1992 um, and it took that long for them to acknowledge that we were people too and I think that's a really hard and important thought to keep with us as we go forward. [Amanda] I will give people a moment to kind of consider what you just said Rebecca, because I think it's extremely important um, that the recognize of persons with disabilities was, was so recent um, as being recognized as a person, so thank you to all of you for answering those questions um, and I'm done asking questions on behalf of us and we're going to turn it over to questions from the audience. So, I'll open it up to our three panelists that are remaining. Um so are there -with the recent trends- sorry let me start this over - Are recent trends and increasing numbers of students with non-visible disabilities changing the way disability services do their work? [Larry] Yes, it is and uh, of course the disability offices have all this pressure now to include everyone on the basis of this documentation and the uh, diagnoses thing. So that's - that was my point and yes, we've talked about this and over the years, and so partly the pressure is then in, in, in trying to be inclusive and trying to do a good thing is to lower the standard. So what we have said, and maintained, and have done is tried to actually instead of why do we insist on students who need help, really need help, but may not have to get a diagnosis to get it they don't necessarily have to fit the DSO and we did this other thing called FITA in order to do that, but then we created a hybrid within PMC where we have students and they have a diagnosis and we do this other piece in terms of the student development because there is a limit to accommodations as uh, and this is what we're seeing throughout the province. Accommodations are always going to be needed and they are absolutely necessary but we do have a trend coming from high schools where students come and they have increasing numbers of accommodations and, and we find out sometimes in the schools they're in they're getting a cookie-cutter approach uh time and, and uh separate space but they don't know really why and so they're not really uh as informed as previous students and we have asked and, and we've been told that really it's easier to administer if they just do a cookie-cutter approach. So, for whatever we do, increasing numbers though is not an excuse to not get at the specific needs of individuals because otherwise a student who has two accommodation needs and has 12 that they think they need is being burdened so it really is important to do this work. The numbers are going to continue to increase um, and I do think though that the big thing to watch is going to be poor mental health, it's going to be a big percentage, it'll surpass I think all of the DSO numbers. So, somehow to structure that so as, so that DSOs are not under all this pressure because we don't want to turn students away and if they can't meet a criteria and they still need help, it's a structural problem and I think that uh, it's something that uh DSOs can work with and PMC is doing a marvelous job. [Amanda] Thank you Larry. I have a feeling this is going to come back to you so [laughs] this could be a rather quick one, it's coming from Maria, she's asking "I wonder, is there any consideration for changing the name of the Paul Menton Centre for Students with Disabilities to something like Paul Menton Centre for Accessibility or Paul Menton Centre or Paul Menton Centre for Thriving Communities? AKA is there room for change when it comes to uh, how the PMC is known? [Larry] Well who should answer that- because I'm not there. [Amanda] [Laughs] That's a great question. I uh, again I feel like you probably are the most knowledgeable as to how that could happen - [Larry] Okay so it - this has come up before and uh, we never said well, we're not going to make a change. We just hadn't decided. One of the changes that did happen though was some centres were actually narrowing in terms of their name which also coincided with their services, to call themselves the accessibility centre. That we didn't believe in because we have this, and Amanda who is this host at this point has been pivotal in terms of the student development work, which has - is a, is a leading contributor to student success, whether or not students have disabilities or poor mental health, it's really important. So, it could happen and I, I don't, I don't remember anyone being resistant to but I'm not really sure uh you know we're just I don't know. [Chuckle] There are many things I don't know and this is one of them. [Amanda] It definitely was a tough question to ask there because again Paul Menton Centre is um you know, a big, a big branding name. A lot of what's happened in accessibility has happened as a result of that. Thanks to Cathy for pointing that out as well, who you'll be hearing from shortly. Um, we have another question coming out which is: knowing that the community is very diverse and people with disabilities have many ways they identify, how can we continue to assure that people are not having to choose between their identities in order to get accessible and disability confident services, supports and spaces? Who would like to tackle this one first? Rebecca has her hand up. [Rebecca] I think that we've done a pretty good job right now so far the things that we've done um at creating spaces where you don't have to separate who you are in this field of flowers. I think that uh with the people that we have on board right now um, they're all pretty great at acknowledging that no disability or impairment or any of that, nothing looks the same. Everyone has their own journey. Everyone has their own walk or movement or journey forward and it is what it is and I think that there is so much space for everyone's identity to exist, even within the place where, even within READ I use identity first language there are some who use person first language and we were always able to just exist. This is how we - this is how we are and everyone has their own so I think we could exist together. [Amanda] Thank you so much Rebecca. Paul or Larry do you have anything else to add to that question? Let me know if you need me to repeat it. Okay, we'll move on because we do have lots rolling in here. So thank you for your heartfelt and moving reflections there are very uh, there are variations in accessibility for learners across campus for example lab-based activities have many accessibility challenges as does field work. What can Carleton improve lab related accessibility in the sciences, engineering field work geography, etc.? Thank you. Paul go ahead. Yeah I was like, I hope Paul wants to answer this question. [Paul] Yeah, number one having these conversations and I know that I'm in the faculty of science and I know that Um we're we're really having these conversations um, I was really heartened when we had a session for faculty and staff recently and the number of faculty that showed up to talk about it. And um, and to talk about some of these questions and realize where we're not addressing them because it does it does go across a wide range with, with field work lab-based activities um, and there are a lot of things so having those conversations um about where where one might might have those barriers um and then uh, for those of us you know who are faculty to, to normalize these, these things within our work so it's not an abnormal thing to for accommodation but it's part of normality so um that they're there and they exist and it's not up to the individual to to to always request and and look for it. Um some of the barriers we do face um uh in in some aspects of science include financial because a lot of research is paid for outside and we need to address as as researchers we need to to advocate for that so that this doesn't continue to become a barrier to us in our own research funding grants to um, uh, allow for any additional you know financial costs that come about come about because of it um and to allow allow things to go on but I think I think making it clear um you know across these different areas and also then then changing the the, the culture within that that um, you know and I think that part's been really slow to change um within within laboratory base and I talk about that with with the work that I do on computers and then in field work as well. It's been really slow to change and sort of seeing the barriers for doing that um but I think that I see that as one of the next steps in in um allowing for that to happen um at those levels too. [Larry] Amanda it's also worth noting that this is actually an issue that Somei uh was has looked into over the years, Somei Tam uh, but as well um, Matthew Cole and Dean Mellway are heading up a full campus audit that is huge and it'll probably be the only university in the world to have done that and that will include the accessibility of uh physical labs. It's expensive work, needs to get done. One thing that has happened uh some people have noted over the years as the percentage of people with non-visible disabilities has gone from about 10 percent to 90 percent and uh, and and there's been inclusion of groups that were not included in previous decades uh, but some of the work around physical accessibility I think uh did not get done as a result of refocusing towards these other groups so legitimate reason for, for, uh, moving but no real excuse for us not to get the physical accessibility right. And uh, so that does need to be addressed still. [Amanda] I know that PMC and READ continue to work with various faculties and departments um, to again really raise awareness to how can we make these environments more inclusive um, so although we want to have the student voices a part of the discussion and we constantly encourage that to happen um, we're also again thinking from the design perspective of okay so how can we make this happen so this isn't something that is necessary. So, we are having those discussions with a lot of faculty as well um, but as, as Paul said discussions like this need to happen in order for, for change to continue to occur. Uh, there is a question in here about um, how someone can facilitate shifting the mindset on what accessibility means and I have a feeling that Cath will be talking to us about CAS in, in, in her presentation or give us my idea of of things that are happening on campus um, so I do want to move to our last two questions. Um, one is I'm interested in how we can partner with public and private businesses to demystify process and pathways for better workplace participation and inclusion- and we see it a lot I mean through Act to Employ which has been mentioned several times, Career Services is doing a, a great job with with Act to Employ to ensure that that continues to happen for students in their placements and co-op, on, on jobs on campus, and jobs in the community um, but opening up to Rebecca, Paul, or Larry um, how can we partner with public and private businesses to demystify the process? I think, again, I think that kind of opened up the door for that- I, I think DCOI did that as well and Rebecca, you worked for DCOI, so maybe you could speak to that a little bit. [Rebecca] Um, we had a lot of um, fun I'm gonna say fun because I did a lot of the event planning with Moira which was so much fun um, but it was really great to see how the students - so what we did if people aren't aware, is we hosted um, career network events and so we hosted them for the partners um, so like Ottawa- the - UOttawa and etcetera, etcetera, um, and so we went uh, the one at Carleton was great and it was so fun to see the students that I knew from like our community to go through and like just the way that they held themselves they were so confident and moved through the like the room and they sat at a table and they had these connections but it wasn't just the whole event, it was the, the back end that happened where there were communications with these partners these people that came and were ready, willing, and able to hire students with disabilities and the conversations that were held about what are accommodations - what kind of accommodations do you have for hiring processes? What kind of you know, what does it look like when you bring in students with disabilities into your workforce? And all kinds of things like that. So, that was really good and DCOI did a whole bunch of other stuff but I'm sensing we're running out of time so I'll just cut it there. [Amanda] No problem. I was gonna - thank you so much Rebecca. And again, if people have more questions about how we partner with public and private businesses again, you can reach out to us - PMC, you can reach out to Career Services through Act to Employ um, so again lots of ways to do that. And I'm going to finalize uh, our last question before I turn it back over to Bruce. To Larry um, and Somei is asking, what is your advice for Carleton to maintain its reputation and leadership in accessibility? [Larry] Well uh, I should - first thing, I read an article recently about how bad predictions tend to be even by or especially the experts so, everything has to be taken from - with a grain of salt. But um, you know, I mean for me it has to do with the application of what worked in the past towards the future. So and most of all with technology and uh, with all the great tools that are being developed and these are really important and we've seen with the teleconferencing that gave a certain, we learned advantage towards people with disabilities and so on, but we have to keep things real and we have to focus on the individuals and I'm gonna relate this question to the previous one too, we - people like uh you know, Sam Graham, Tammi Ricci, uh Jenna Lambert, they need to be front and centre for people to see what people like this can do uh, in the work world. Um so, I- I do think that we have a culture of accessibility and I think that uh, we can grow it uh, but I think that the uh, the best thing is uh to rely on our people uh, doing good things out in the world and um- but again though this sort of uh, down to keeping it down to earth in terms of uh, where the accomplishments lie. We don't track actually, PMC's never had - and I certainly wasn't doing it- kept track of some individuals but it would be great to have in there, in people's spare time, tracking uh, all our graduates and, and building on that. So anyway, I come down on the human side um, and uh, only slightly because I'm a bit of, known as a bit of a luddite but uh, yeah, and Somei is actually one of those people who will do some of the best work with on the human side of things. [Amanda] Couldn't agree more Larry. And thank you to all of our panelists today for um, being so open and honest and informative about accessibility practices here and how we uh, continue and I am going to turn it over to Bruce before we break for today. So, thank you again to the three of you, and Tammi [chuckles]. [Bruce] Thank you very much everyone, and and to Larry's point, um, you know one of the things that that I've always marveled at is how much richer the PMC is because of work that students do with us and we have one of the largest volunteer programs on campus, if not the largest, um prior to COVID you know we had about 1700 volunteers. Just the sheer talent um, from, from students and helping us with our programming I think is one of the reasons why PMC has been considered the gold standard for disability services and by all means there's absolutely no doubt that when, when people graduate, that talent is, is firmly being displayed in the workforce as well. So, I agree Larry, I think that's something that we need to work on moving forward um, with that said, a big thank you to all of our participants um, Dr. Tammi Ricci, Dr. Paul Peters, Rebecca Andre, and our own friend, mentor, and guest of honor, Larry McCloskey, thank you very much all of you for sharing your insights. It's been, it's been wonderful, we are doing well for time so we're now going to take a five minute break and when we come back Cathy Malcolm Edwards uh, will share with us about Carleton's Coordinated Accessibility Strategy um, so you don't want to miss that. Thanks. [Instrumental music]